James Taylor (00:09)

Today I’m thrilled to welcome Dr. Joseph Gibelli to the Super Creativity Podcast. Joseph is a neuroscientist with a PhD from University College London, postdoctoral experience at the University of Washington, and a writer who brings scientific depth to real human dilemmas. His first book, In Pursuit of Memory, was shortlisted for the Royal Society Trivedi Science Book Prize and longlisted for the Welcome Book Prize.

His latest, The Brain at Rest, is a thoughtful, counter-cultural manifesto. Rest isn’t slacking. It activates our brain’s default mode network, lighting up creativity, memory, insight, and emotional clarity. He reveals how burnout doesn’t just drain us, it ages our brain, thins critical regions, and fuels a silent global health crisis. Whether you’re feeling stuck,

burnout or just sinking into your smartphone at night, Joseph’s message is resoundingly clear. What if stepping back is the most creative move you could make? Joseph, welcome to the Super Creativity Podcast.

Joseph Jebelli (01:16)

Hi James, thanks for having me.

James Taylor (01:19)

Now, in parts you’ve written deeply about memory, the evolution of the human brain, and now rest, was there a moment, professionally or personally, when you realised that rest wasn’t laziness, but a neural necessity?

Joseph Jebelli (01:32)

Yeah, so I had quite an interesting journey discovering the neuroscience of rest. So the first reason was really personal. So I witnessed both my mother and father massively overwork and reached the point of burnout to the point of really ⁓ ill health consequences. So my father now lives with major depressive disorder as a result of overwork. My mother has a blood pressure that’s so high that her GP texts almost daily asking for blood pressure.

readings. And so I sort of grew up with parents who were incredibly hard workers to the point of burnout. And so it took me a long time to really actually appreciate the importance of rest. And so I myself went through that phase of overwork. So when I was a postdoc at the University of Washington, I’d basically spend all day in the lab doing experiments and mentoring students. And then I would

you know, I would finish around six or seven and go straight to a coffee shop and then just sit and work on grants and my first book until like 10 or 11 o’clock at night. And, you know, like, needless to say, it was it was exhausting. And I always felt, you know, I often felt totally wiped out. And it was interesting because I realized I couldn’t sustain that pace indefinitely. And so I started to ease off from my work. And when I started to ease off from my work, these

something really astonishing happened. So not only did I feel better, not only did I sleep better, but other, I noticed other cognitive improvements. So like my memory got better, my ability to think clearly improved, my ability to write more fluidly got better. And I actually ended up being more productive than I was when I was just grinding it out all day long. So even though I was doing fewer hours of work every day, I was achieving more. And so I just thought this is really interesting.

And then I, so I decided to look into the neuroscience of rest, you know, driven largely by that. And what I discovered is really extraordinary. You know, there is this resting brain network, which as you say, is called the default network. And that network only becomes active when we rest, when we do things that are restful to our brains. And we now know just in the last few years that when you activate your default network with rest, you improve your intelligence.

creativity, memory, problem solving abilities, ability to predict the future. It even lowers your risk of developing neurological illnesses like depression and dementia. And so, you know, the message I’m trying to get across in the book is that we have our understanding of work and rest completely upside down. It’s rest, not work, that is the secret to sustained productivity. It’s rest that is the driving force behind all of our cognitive abilities. And as I say in the book, what this new neuroscience is teaching us is that

People often succeed in life not despite their inactivity but because of it.

James Taylor (04:31)

So that almost feels like it’s obviously the opposite end of the hustle culture that we’re living in today as well. It’s saying, you know, just hustle, just kind of keep cranking through there as well. As you were looking into the research of this and you were kind of doing your own research for it.

and obviously you’d had the example with your parents, you could see firsthand, but as you kind of looked for the data to kind of support your hypothesis, was there any key stat or data or research that you discovered in that process that made you end, actually, I think I’m onto something here. There’s something that can, it’s not just a gut feeling, it’s actually something that’s really supported by evidence.

Joseph Jebelli (05:07)

Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of work and overwork, even though working conditions are better today than they were in the past, there’s no doubt about that. When you look at the statistics and you look at the data, we are in a dramatic regression in terms of burnout and overwork. So just to give you a few stats off the top of my head. globally, overwork now kills 745,000 people a year. That’s a 29 % increase since the year 2000.

three in five employees now report a lack of interest, motivation and energy. That’s a 38 % increase since 2019. So, you know, we are in a huge regression in terms of burnout and overwork. And when you look at the brain, what this is doing to the brain, it actually thins the frontal cortex in the same way that aging does. It literally makes your brain older than it is. It enlarges a region called the amygdala, which was responsible for our fight or flight.

reflex, that’s why overworked people often feel very anxious. It also shrinks the hippocampus, a region really important for learning and memory. And, you the really interesting thing is that when you actually look at what overwork is doing to us psychologically and neurologically, it actually falls into a pattern of really interesting phases. So it starts off with basically dissatisfaction, like you’re not happy with your job.

You feel dissatisfied, but it’s kind of a manageable feeling. So you just ignore it. That then moves into cynicism where you just no longer care about your job. It’s just something you’ve got to do. You’ve got to do it to pay the bills. So you just get on with it. That then moves into dehumanization. And that’s the kind of emotional hardening that many people have around their job. That’s what leads to things, a sense of sort of incompetence and productivity guilt. And that then leads to anxiety and depression.

And that’s then when many of the neurological symptoms like a thinning frontal cortex and a shrinking hippocampus start to set in. But the really interesting thing about this science is that some incredible longitudinal studies in Sweden have shown that once the symptoms of overwork set in, it takes your brain up to three years to recover. It takes it three years just to get back to that baseline of good cognitive ability. And so, you know,

All of the data and the statistics bear this out, that things are getting much worse in terms of our work culture. you alluded to it earlier when you talked about the hustle mindset. We do still have this widespread rampant and increasing problem of a hustle mentality, that it’s somehow an aspirational way to live, that the harder you work, the faster you run, the more you’re going to achieve and the quicker you’re going to get to where you want to get. And it’s just not true.

It’s the complete opposite is true. know, rest is the driving force behind sustained long-term productivity and all of your higher cognitive abilities. ⁓ And so, you know, all of the data now bears this out, whether you’re, you know, ⁓ a doctor, a train driver, a student, it doesn’t matter what you’re doing, what task you’re doing, you will always perform better on that task if you rest beforehand, precisely because you’re activating.

your brain’s default network, your brain’s resting network.

James Taylor (08:29)

wondering as well, has there been any, I guess it’s probably the span is too short in terms of where this is starting to be studied, but is there anything in terms of the evolutionary side of this? Because we think about 100 years ago, I was watching a video just a few days ago, it was set in the 19th, was from 1930s or 1940s, and it was talking about the average day of work for someone in management. And I looked at it I thought,

if that person had to deal with the same level of stress and the same pace that they have to deal with today, it’s a different thing. I wonder, as it being my research, obviously I realized for the people that living in it now, that having to deal with this kind of change in terms of what we have to do every day, but are we starting to see anything from an evolutionary standpoint that maybe over four or five decades, the human brain starts to adapt and we kind of get used to working at this higher pace?

Joseph Jebelli (09:25)

Hmm so Sorry

So when you look at the history, I think a lot of the overwork mindset that we have, that we’ve basically inherited from the past, a lot of it comes from 16th century Protestant work ethic of just, you know, keep calm, carry on, get on with it. You know, ⁓ this idea that rest is an indulgence, it’s a luxury. It’s something that’s kind of unprincipled, even a bit irresponsible. And that mindset,

has carried on right up to the present. We still think of rest as an unprincipled and even irresponsible indulgence, essentially, not as the driving force of our higher cognitive abilities. And I think that’s what’s basically led us into this culture of what I call in the book untrammeled capitalism. So just capitalism with not enough guardrails, not enough regulations. And we have made some progress. There’s the five-day workday.

there’s the five day work week instead of the seven day work week. There’s progress like, we no longer have asbestos in hospitals and people have to wear their seat belts and you can’t smoke in hospitals. There are cultural landmarks, but the fact is when you look at the science, we haven’t gone anywhere near enough, far enough when it comes to work and overwork. And as I said, all the data shows were actually going in the wrong direction.

you when you just have to look at like the four day work week, for instance, where they did a huge trial of that in Iceland, and they found that productivity either stayed the same or actually improved. And I think, you know, as a result of that large trial, they’re now about to try one, a four day work week in Japan as well. Japan’s really interesting. They actually have a word for working to death in Japan. They call it Kuroshi. And they estimate it’s responsible for 20,000 deaths a year. So, you know, to come back to your question, you know,

You know, there’s there have been some some areas of progress, but we are we are completely moving backwards when it comes to overwork. And I think a lot of that has to do with, again, mainly the cultural mindset of thinking of rest as an indulgence. But more than anything, just a complete lack of understanding about the science of rest. You know, we don’t understand until relatively recently, like what actually is rest for your brain? Like, what is it? Are you just powering down?

Because I think that’s how basically people have thought of it. They thought of rest for the brain in the same way that we think of rest for a muscle, that it’s just powering down. But it’s not, it’s switching states, it’s moving into a different network, it’s activating the default network. Because the really interesting thing about the default network is that it works in competition with another network that we call the executive network, and that’s the work network. That’s the network that’s active when there’s a task to be done. So whenever you’re at your desk and you’re leaning into a cognitively demanding task,

You can feel when the executive network is activated because it’s tiring, it’s exhausting. You start to mind wander and drift away because you’re not really that interested in what you’re doing because it’s so mentally exhausting. When that network is activated, your default network is very quiet because they work in competition with each other. But interestingly, the executive network only occupies about 5 % of your brain, whereas the default network occupies 20 % of the brain.

We need to understand that when you rest, this network, this 20 % of your brain large resting network is not only firing up, but that’s the thing that’s improving your memory and creativity and giving you all of these insights. There’s a reason why you have your best thoughts when you’re just alone in the shower, not really thinking about much, or when you just go for a walk in a park and you just let your mind drift. It’s because your default network is busily

working on all of these problems. And so I think that’s, that’s that to me, that’s the biggest reason that we misunderstand rest. We haven’t understood what the actual underlying neuroscience of rest is and what it’s doing to our brains.

James Taylor (13:36)

So taking from a kind of the neural network standpoint and from a chemical standpoint, you speak about this idea of the default mode network and it kind of lights up essentially when you’re doing nothing. So for listeners that maybe unfamiliar, what’s actually going on in the brain? Like if I was to be looking at a scan of the brain or the chemistry of the brain, what is actually happening when that default mode network is going on?

Joseph Jebelli (14:06)

So a couple of things. The first thing that happens is that blood flow increases, like to a huge extent, to the default network and also to the frontal lobe, which is the seat of your higher faculties. So whenever you think of things like human attention and decision making, our personalities, ⁓ many of our higher faculties are found as a result of ⁓ activity in the frontal lobe. And a lot of the default network is actually found in the frontal lobe.

even though it actually spans out across the brain. So the first thing that happens is that blood flow increases and that delivers more oxygen to your nerve cells. And as a result, they basically become a lot more active. So these are electrical cells that fire electrical impulses. And when they become more active, that’s basically, that’s what underlies your ability to think, to think clearly. And at the same time, they form new connections as well. neurons are covered in

what we call synapses. I’m sure everyone is familiar with what synapses are, but when you activate your default network with REST, you can actually increase the number of synapses on neurons, increase the number of synaptic contacts with other neurons. So it’s quite literally forming new connections, which is then underpinning your ability to come up with new creative insights. it’s a neurophysiological, but also a neurochemical and a neuroelectrical phenomena that…

is allowing you to come up with all of these new thoughts. suppose that’s really what’s happening. I suppose that’s really what we’re happening when you look at the brain scans. it’s worth noting as well that even though the default network, it was discovered in 2001, but it’s only the last few years that we’ve really started to understand it. But the really interesting thing about studying the default network is for many years, neuroscientists ignored it because they thought it was just meaningless background noise.

So what they would often do is they would put someone into a brain scanner and they would say, okay, we’re interested in finding out what certain regions of the brain are doing when you perform a certain task. So they would say, we want you to memorize a long list of words. We want you to, or we want you to name as many words beginning with the letter K. So it would be any type of sort of cognitively demanding task. And then they would look for the brain regions that light up.

And at the time there was this, you when they were just, when the people were just lying down in the brain scanners before the experiment started, so before they had to perform the work orientated task, when they were just relaxing and chilling out, the default network resting brain signal was screaming with activity. And it was, it was so powerful that neuroscientists would actually delete that signal just in order to see more closely what the brain was doing when we perform a task.

And again, I think that comes back to this cultural attitude of like, well, you know, there’s work and then there’s, and then there’s nothing. There’s nothing else. And so they ignored it. They exactly, the void exactly. So, but it’s only recently they’ve actually decided, okay, we really need to figure out what this background signal is. So yeah, I mean, essentially your neurons are becoming much more active, forming new connections. And also I should say as well, getting physically bigger.

James Taylor (17:11)

The void.

Joseph Jebelli (17:31)

in terms of your actual brain. So we know for instance that when you take a 30 minute nap every day, and this was a discovery made only a few years ago by an incredible neuroscientist at University College London called Victoria Garfield. People who take 30 minute naps every day literally have bigger brains than people who don’t. And the difference is really significant. We’re talking about 15 cubic centimeters and to put that into context, that’s the volume of a small plum. And so when you just pause and think about

You know, the millions of neurons and synapses and connections and cognitive abilities that are contained within the volume of a small plum, it’s huge. you know, rest, it’s not just activating your default network. It’s actually growing the network. It’s growing the size of your brain itself. It’s making your brain chunkier and healthier and more resilient to a whole host of things, including neurodegenerative diseases and age-related cognitive decline. ⁓ So there’s all of these…

sort of concrete neurobiological things happening, know, without us even being aware really that they’re happening until you start resting more and then you realize, I feel a lot better and sharper.

James Taylor (18:45)

I mean, what you were saying also about those studies that were done where the scientists would almost, the researcher would kind of disregard the void, let’s say, or whatever the space was, kind of makes me think a little bit of, in jazz music, where I think it was Louis Armstrong, or maybe it was Miles Davis, was saying, actually, the thing is the space, that is the thing. And, you know, we think of the notes, but actually, we don’t think of the space, or we think of…

the stars for example, we think space or we think a table, actually most of this table is the gaps, is the space between the materials as well, so it’s interesting like your book is really kind of focused on that space. One, you’ll be able to correct me on this because I know for years when I’ve been on stages and I’ve spoken about this move that happens,

from what we call the incubation stage in creativity to the insight, the aha moment, the light bulb moment. And I often talk about…

that shower moment, I ask audiences how many of you get your best ideas in the shower and there’s a large number or sometimes it’s in the late evening when people are more relaxed for example and I’ve always had this line that I talk about for the shower thing in the morning and now that I’m actually getting to speak to a proper neuroscientist I can find out if I’m actually saying this right or if this is complete bunk what I’ve been saying up to this point which is I was always led to believe that

In the morning, your brain is fuzzy and it’s unwound, so you’re open to unconventional thoughts. Alpha waves are rippling through your brain, directing your attention inwards to remote associations that emanate from the right hemisphere. Is that correct or have I been talking bunk for a few years in terms of actually what’s going on in the brain here?

Joseph Jebelli (20:27)

No, no, that’s ⁓ can you say can you say that last bit again?

James Taylor (20:30)

So ⁓

the line I’ve often used is, brain is fuzzy, it’s unwound, we’re open to unconventional thoughts, alpha waves are rippling through our brain, directing our attention inwards to remote associations that emanate from the right hemisphere.

Joseph Jebelli (20:45)

Yeah, no that, yeah, that doesn’t, that sounds fairly accurate to me. No, no, no.

James Taylor (20:49)

It’s not completely wrong. But

the reason I mention that as well is I know that West Point Military Academy, one of the techniques that they teach there is a technique called preloading, where they tell people about two hours before you go to sleep at night, let’s say if you’re thinking about a problem at work or if you’re in the military, for example, and a challenge you’re trying to figure out, they say ask yourself a question two hours before you go to sleep at night and then just forget about it.

And your brain overnight when you’re relaxed and just sleeping, it of works and that’s often the reason we get these aha moments in the morning as well. So that kind of relaxation, just kind of letting it go, know, letting it move and just let your brain do some of those, because we think the brain’s not actually doing anything at night when we’re sleeping and I guess that’s not correct.

Joseph Jebelli (21:25)

Hmm.

Mmm.

No, yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, it’s, really like the way you put it as well when you described it as unwound because, you know, when you wake up, your brain is in a phase that we call the hypnopompic phase. So that’s the phase basically between sleep and full wakefulness. You also have a term that people are probably a bit more familiar with, which is the hypnagogic phase.

And that’s the phase just before you go to sleep, just before like, you know, the phase between wakefulness and actually falling asleep. And interestingly, we now know that both those phases, just before you go to sleep and just when you wake up, are periods of really strong default network activity. Like sleep itself is a period of high default network activity, but those phases as well are really important for it. And that’s why I say in the book, you know, before you go to bed,

Don’t please, please for the love of God, don’t just sit doom scrolling on your phone before you go to bed, because that’s not going to activate your default network. The artificial light from the phone is really bad for you. Just as a quick aside, we now think one of the main reasons that cancer is going up so much among young people is because of the artificial light just before people go to bed, because it’s blocking melatonin, the sleep hormone. And we now know that melatonin has a really powerful anti-cancer effect.

It essentially acts as a tumor suppressor. ⁓ So don’t look at your phone because, you know, that’s, it feels restful because it’s a distraction from what you were just doing, but it’s not, it’s a trick. It’s masquerading as rest. All looking at your phone does is it trains your distraction. It doesn’t, it doesn’t allow your brain, you know, the thing that allows your brain rest is the things that allow ⁓ deep inner self-reflective self, self, crucially self-generated thought.

So instead of doing that, know, just stare into space for a few minutes and let your mind wander. you know, even just reading a few pages of like a fiction book that you really enjoy, let’s say something that isn’t cognitively taxing, something that isn’t going to activate your executive network. ⁓ You know, those are the sorts of things you should do, really restful things before you go to sleep. And again, in the morning, don’t just hop on your phone, actually spend a few minutes just staring into space, stare out of the window.

you know, stare at a mark, you know, on your ceiling. You’re like a little, you know, it doesn’t matter what it is. Just let your brain actually decompress. Let it do seemingly nothing. Just stare into space. It feels like you’re doing nothing, but your default network is really active and it’s doing so much. But yeah, unwound is, yeah, I like that. That’s a very good way of saying it.

James Taylor (24:26)

I think there

was another way I use on when there was another a few years ago I was doing an event in Stockholm in Sweden and I was staying at this fantastic hotel which is you might know it called the Grand Hotel it’s where the Nobel Prize winners stay the night before they’re going to collect their prizes and so I’m having

breakfast there in the morning and having coffee and who should walk past me but John Cleese, the British famous comedian. So I actually went up to him, he’s obviously a big fan of his work and ⁓ we got talking, we actually talked about creativity because he did a talk a few years ago where he talked about how, and he was talking about in relation to comedy and writing comedy, he said, you know, our brain is like a camera lens.

Joseph Jebelli (24:53)

⁓ wow.

James Taylor (25:12)

and sometimes you need it to be really focused in focus but often when you have to do more creative expansive work you actually want to purposely defocus the lens you know that kind of relaxation or defocusing of the lens and one of the things you mentioned these two foot the hip I probably got this wrong hypnopompic and hypnogolic face that probably got these wrong but yeah and it reminded me there was a was a study done a few years ago I think it was a professor at Harvard where he

Joseph Jebelli (25:30)

Hypnopompic, yeah. Yeah, hypnopompic and hypnagogic.

James Taylor (25:41)

took comedians and jazz musicians under brain scans and he looked at the bit of the brain that they were able to switch off and it’s the bit that I’m gonna probably massacre the way I’m saying this but it’s basically the bit that all of us have which says don’t say that you shouldn’t really say that you know it’s a little bit of the pause that almost but comedians and jazz musicians are actually able to switch

this part off and it’s a train, it’s something that they’ve been trained to do and if you know a lot of jazz musicians, my wife’s a jazz musician and they said to do what they do well they actually have to feel relaxed.

in the moment to get that sense of flow in what they’re doing to kind of, so it doesn’t feel, they don’t feel that tenseness in that executive part you were just talking about. They have that sense even though they’re in front of people, there’s a confidence and that allows parts of their brain to maybe switch off and to switch on as well.

Joseph Jebelli (26:39)

Yeah, absolutely. mean, overthinking, you know, is not good for the default network, obviously. And as you said, it leads to feelings of anxiety and apprehension. And, you know, all of those things block your cognitive abilities. ⁓ And so, you know, it is basically about, ⁓ you know, seemingly switching the brain off. I mean, I I I often think of one really interesting study where

they found that they got a group of people to perform like a repetitive task, like a really boring work orientated repetitive task. And they found that the people who were allowed to just, you know, feel like they’re switching off and let their minds wander, they always performed better on that task. But interestingly, even when they did that to the point where their mind wandering actually like hindered their performance on the task.

So they had their heads in the clouds for just a little bit too long. It had actually affected the performance on the task itself. Even then, it still ramped up their creativity. Their scores of creativity were much higher in all of the cognitive tests for the time being and in the long run. So that’s the interesting thing. Even if you feel a bit guilty about letting you.

letting your mind rest and doing nothing and you feel like, it’s actually going to hamper my ability maybe in the here and now. It’s not, it’s still going to be much better for your brain in the long run. And so there’s, know, there’s, it’s very sort of counterintuitive and I think it’s something that the more we learn about it, the more counterintuitive and like fascinating it becomes.

James Taylor (28:23)

Now in the book you obviously, you’re not a proponent of doom scrolling and you say there is better ways to rest that brain. In the book you talk about walks, naps, baths, other things as well. ⁓ What have you found has been maybe in your own life, in your own creative work that you do as a research and a writer, what do you find really works for you that allows that brain to really go to rest?

Joseph Jebelli (28:49)

So I think one of the most important things and it’s a small easy thing to ⁓ start as well. It’s just to take ⁓ many more breaks throughout the day. I now, know, every hour I take a 10 minute break. And I often also practice the Pomodoro technique where you have 25 minutes of work and then five minutes breaks, five minutes of rest. And it’s really important in that time to do nothing, just to go for a walk, to sit by a window and let your mind wander.

Or even you can listen to an audio book if you find it restful, you can read something that you find restful. But I think just bringing in many more breaks throughout the day is a really good way to activate the default network and to get it activated throughout the day because we’re so used to just sitting down in this deep focus mode and working for such extensive periods of time that we ignore the resting brain. So I incorporate…

many more breaks throughout my day. I spend a lot more time sort of just, yeah, just like gazing out of the window, going on walks in, you know, in green spaces. That’s really important. There was a huge study done recently on 20,000 people by a research called Matthew White. I think it was at Exeter University where he basically found that, you know, about 20 minutes a day.

of being in a green space is the sweet spot for improved psychological and neurological health. And we know now that when you spend time in green spaces, your brain waves actually shift. They shift from very busy and anxious beta waves into much more calming and even meditative theta waves. And that happens because nature is basically full of what psychologists call soft fascinations.

So these are things that hold your attention in a really effortless way. There’s a reason why when you’re in a forest and you’re listening to the rustling of the leaves or you’re on a beach and you’re just staring at the lapping blue waves, there’s a reason that holds your attention in a very effortless way. And especially when you contrast that to what psychologists call hard fascinations, that’s things like your smartphone, like LED billboards, train announcements, overbearing bosses and…

deadlines and all these things and these things are draining your attentional resources and causing cognitive fatigue. But more than that, when you’re in a green space, we now know that plants actually release this chemical called phytoncides and these are basically oils that protect trees from bacteria. But when you’re in a green space, you breathe phytoncides in and it has an incredible effect on your immune system. can actually, it can raise your immune systems.

ability to fight off infections by 40%. Even just being in a green space has been shown to increase creativity by 50 % and memory recall by 20%. Incredibly, if you’re in a brain scanner as well, and you’re literally just shown a picture of a green space versus a city, your default network will come online and you’ll start to get some of the cognitive benefits of that. you know, our brains are craving nature in a far more profound way than we’ve previously recognized.

And so what else do do? Well, you I spend time exercising as well because active rest is also really beneficial for the brain. Even gentle exercise. So we now know that only four minutes of gentle exercise a day is enough to grow a bigger brain and a healthier default network. Also finding micro moments of play throughout your day is really good for the brain. Because when you think about play, I mean, what is play? It’s unstructured, it’s imaginative.

Crucially, it’s task off rather than task on. And these are all things that the default network thrives on. So, find those moments of play throughout your day where you don’t take things so seriously and you can have fun. And I suppose just leaving work at work as well, like I’ve tried to get better at doing that. We all take work with us now. all, I mean, many people respond to work emails on the weekends and it’s about.

creating a clearer demarcation between work and rest because they’re not in opposition with each other. Rest is the thing that is the fuel for your work and it’s the thing that’s going to lead to much better long-term productivity. So yeah, there’s lots of tools and techniques and different ways to rest.

James Taylor (33:22)

These are great.

And as you’re saying, obviously with the color green, I remember a few years ago, was studies at the University of Berlin and the University of British Columbia, they looked at which colors kind of really are best for creativity. And that color green was the one that both those kind of studies found.

And ⁓ I was speaking at event recently for one of the tribal nations in the US and we were talking about this idea of how the place in which you create has an effect upon what you create as well and David Byrne, the musician’s done a very famous TED talk about that as well in terms of music, how different spaces affect your ability to create. And I was saying ⁓ to these tribal leaders at the time, I said, we know

In Europe, we have this idea of the genius loci. The Romans came up with the places themselves have their own creative genius. This idea that the individual is the creative genius is quite a modern notion. You know, it’s a Renaissance idea, basically. But up until that point, it was always felt that we were vessels for creative ideas, inspiration, it can literally flowed through us. And as I’m talking to these tribal leaders, they’re saying, yeah, we’ve known this for

like centuries, you know, we, when we talk about a lake or a ⁓ mountain range, we talk about it having that effect, it has this kind of genius loci as well and

Joseph Jebelli (34:35)

Hahaha

James Taylor (34:47)

And so, and I know that maybe it’s just the sciences, we’re just finally kind of catching up to something that’s been like the Japanese, I they have forest bathing, which has happened for a long time where they kind of go into the spaces. maybe we’re just finally catching up. One thing I am interested to know though, as someone who spends a lot of time in the Middle East, when I’ve spoken about this idea of like the green spaces, it hasn’t quite ⁓ connected in the same way with some of the audiences there.

something I’m interested to know, this is studies I’ve seen have always been focused on the Western countries and Europe and America. I would be interested to know if those societies are from drier climates, whether that green thing also does the same to their brains. I don’t know if I don’t know if any of those kind of studies have been done if it has a there’s differences maybe it’s blue the ocean and the water is a bigger thing for them.

Joseph Jebelli (35:33)

Hmm

Yeah, that’s really interesting. Because we know that obviously different cultures, you know, practice rest in different ways and certain cultures, some cultures take rest more seriously than others. Like we know, for instance, that rest is thankfully taken more seriously in Europe than it is in America. So there’s no doubt about that. But in terms of, and you know, at the same time, you know, Japan, I think sadly has a bit more of the American corporate

overwork kind of mentality. So there are differences, you know, in terms of culture, in terms of the underlying biology. Even people from like a drier climate will respond in the same way to fight inside exposure from trees and, you know, from being in green spaces. at the same time,

you know, the nature thing is interesting because it doesn’t necessarily, you don’t necessarily have to be in a forest. So the soft fascinations and the things that help change your brain waves and your brain chemistry, you know, it can be from being in a beautiful canyon or on a desert. It’s, you know, there are still soft fascinations there. There are still things that are going to change your brain, your brain’s neurochemistry. know, even though, though, as you said, the colour green and being around greenery is really important.

We know for instance that there’s also what we call blue prescriptions now as well, as well as green prescriptions, because the colour blue has actually been found to change the neurochemistry of your brain as well. That also shifts your brain waves and changes your brain’s chemistry in a really positive, beneficial way. And so there are even researchers now looking at the neurological health of people who live on the beach or live on the coast compared to people that live more inland.

James Taylor (37:17)

The scraping, yeah.

Joseph Jebelli (37:38)

So I think the main message is that it’s nature, like, you overall, that is really beneficial for our brains. It’s precisely because it allows us, it allows true rest for the brain. And, you know, because what we’re getting when we don’t embrace nature in that way is, as I said, things that masqueraders rest, like your smartphone, like binge watching your favorite series on Netflix, you know,

being in this sort chronic urban existence where everything is very, very fast paced and very hustle and bustle. And you you can still find restful things to do in that environment, obviously, but it’s, you know, I think it goes without question. It’s harder basically. So no, I mean, yeah, it would, think that there needs to be more research done on like the geographical differences and like cultural differences. But I have no doubt that

James Taylor (38:25)

Yeah.

Joseph Jebelli (38:38)

The neurophysiological effects of things like fight insides and exposure to greenery ⁓ and blue spaces, it’s so profound, the effect it has on your brain that it doesn’t matter if you live in the Middle East in a very dry ⁓ landscape, it’s still gonna help your brain.

James Taylor (38:57)

funny because when often when I’m speaking to more to corporate audiences and I’ll mention something like this you just took which sounds like a very soft kind of woo type of topic about having this relationship with nature and and

the number of people that come up to me afterwards saying, I’m so glad you mentioned this because, know, this is, and they’ll tell you their personal relationship with nature and how they’ve maybe done something in their office or their work day as well. So I think it’s maybe this is a topic that’s in the same way that maybe we talked about emotional intelligence a few years ago that became more of a thing or resilience and maybe this is now we’re kind of moving into this space our relationship with nature. So your previous books have also covered memory.

Joseph Jebelli (39:35)

Hmm.

James Taylor (39:38)

This book is really covering the brain at rest and what that does for us in terms of our clarity, our creativity, our resilience as well. Where’s your research going next? I’m wondering, is the next book gonna be on how to optimize our brain chemistry to do the like hustle work? Like are you gonna go completely in the opposite direction? Where are you going next?

Joseph Jebelli (39:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that really would be a sea change, wouldn’t it? ⁓ Well, I can definitely say a firm categorical no to that. ⁓ I’m very anti-overwork and very pro-rest for all the reasons that we’ve discussed. The next book, you know, I haven’t given too much thought about the next book. So this one’s just come out, talking about it.

⁓ far and wide wherever I can. ⁓ Yeah, I think as well, know, ⁓ having a bit of a rest myself, I suppose, because there was always a kind of interesting sort of irony and paradox to ⁓ trying to be more restful whilst writing a book. But I still managed it by basically just being more intentional about my rest. And as I said, having more breaks throughout the day and practicing all of the tools and techniques that I talk about in the book.

James Taylor (40:39)

⁓

Joseph Jebelli (40:59)

But yeah, at the moment I’m promoting the book, but at the same time thoroughly trying to enact the message of the book with more rest. At least for the time being, we’ve just had a baby boy as well, so I’m taking some paternity leave as well. But yeah, when I know what the next book is, I’ll certainly let you know.

James Taylor (41:24)

Right, so just kind of final quick fire questions as we start to finish up here as well. ⁓ Is there a quote that maybe you reflect on a little bit more often, or something that maybe you keep kind of returning to thinking about this quote?

Joseph Jebelli (41:38)

A quote from something that I’ve written in the book. Yeah.

James Taylor (41:41)

Maybe not to say something,

but maybe a quote from another writer, another thinker, or a scientist that something maybe you often kind of return to, you’re thinking a lot about just now perhaps.

Joseph Jebelli (41:56)

Yeah, that’s-

often think of the ⁓

I’m a fan of the Henry David Thoreau, I love to be alone, I never found the companion that was so companionable as solitude. I do quite like that and I think about that often because I have a chapter in my book about solitude and all of the cognitive benefits that can come from actually having some alone time. You know, crucially when it’s chosen, when it’s voluntary alone time. Because that’s a period of

not only great default network activity, but a period when you can have a true self-generated inner thought. ⁓ And I think that’s something that we’re sort of slowly losing. ⁓ You know, there’s kind of a heritage to rest that we’re losing. You know, I remember speaking to, ⁓ I was speaking to this really interesting psychologist, Charles Ferniehoe, for the book. He’s written some really interesting books. And he was saying how his daughter,

you know, she’s in the garden, but she’s often on a screen and he has to take it away. And he was saying, you know, he was like, you know, he’s saying, you know, when we grew up, you would just sit in the garden and stare at the trees. And I, know, that’s certainly how it was with me as well. think smartphones and all of that, it was, came around really when I was in my twenties. So, and I think, I just think, you know, there’s that quote on solitude, that idea of just enjoying your own company and your own thoughts and just being alone in nature.

to have that inner self-reflection. That’s something I think about more and more because I think with the rise of digital distractions and social media and the kind of digital culture that we’re in and seems to just be amplifying, I think we are losing that more and more. that’s, you know, that heritage of rest, that ability just to sit in the garden, sit in the park and just let your mind wander and stare at the trees.

It’s something that we need to return to more now than ever before.

James Taylor (44:09)

Yeah, this idea of, I know, I remember a few years ago going to Walden Pond, you know, I think with it, Rhea Thurow wrote that book as well. you can, and the first thing immediately came to mind was, God, this must have been really boring at the time. You know, you were just, there’s nothing to do. They were just kind of going, you know, just going there and sitting. And I think, you know, we think about this word boredom in a negative context, but actually I think it’s quite a powerful thing to do because, know,

Joseph Jebelli (44:17)

Hmm.

You

James Taylor (44:38)

having that space where you don’t have the distractions just to let the mind wander that you were talking about earlier, to think and to perhaps come up with original thoughts as well, something that isn’t coming in from other places, social media, the media, other places as well as, yes, maybe that’s a boredom.

Joseph Jebelli (44:56)

Yeah, well, if

boredom is really interesting, should chat to Dr. Anna Lemke. She’s, she’s written some really interesting things about boredom and how it is a catalyst for creativity and how you should, you should embrace boredom because again, they’ve done studies showing that when you’re bored, it not only makes you more creative, interestingly, it makes you more charitable as well, which, was, which was a big surprise. Cause you look for more meaningful things to do afterwards. And part of that

more meaningful search is also to be more charitable. So yeah, there’s a lot to be said for boredom.

James Taylor (45:31)

Amazing, amazing.

What is one, ⁓ we talk about being anti-tech, but I mean not completely anti-tech here, but is there a tool or an app that you find particularly useful in the work you do as a researcher and as a writer?

Joseph Jebelli (45:46)

⁓ Not an app. ⁓ I’m quite anti the apps. So I, I mean, I think I sort of, I mentioned some of the apps in my book that are supposed to help with productivity, like one called Forest, where you’re supposed to be more productive by growing virtual trees, which I just think is completely nuts.

⁓ And all of these apps that’s, you know, supposedly streamline your work and make you more productive when in actual fact, they just make you end up doing more work and spending more time on your phone. It’s like more screen time, essentially. ⁓ So there’s not really an app. I sort of I try and spend as little time. I only spend time on on my smartphone when I really need to now just because of how bad it is for our brains.

and our resting brain in particular. So not a nap. think I’m more a fan of like the techniques side of things like the Pomodoro technique, your 25 minutes work, five minutes rest or practicing things like taking an extra 10 minutes every hour, know, having a 30 minute nap every day, getting 20 minutes in a green space every day, you know, spending like…

upwards of five minutes when you’re in the hypnopompic and hypnagogic phase of sleep, mind wandering. So it’s more about knowing when to… rituals, yes, that’s what I’m looking for, rituals, more about rituals.

James Taylor (47:11)

rituals. Yeah, yeah.

And if there was one book you would recommend, you’re going to have links to your own book here, but if there’s one book by another author that you often gifted more often than others or you kind of go back to more than others, what would that book be?

Joseph Jebelli (47:27)

That’s a really good question. There are so many. There are so many. It’s really tricky. One of my favorite books recently has been David Robson’s The Expectation Effect. Really, really interesting guy who ⁓ talks all about how, you know, often when you expect things to happen, that expectation in itself leads to the cognitive ability to actually achieve what you want to achieve. It’s a kind of cognitive… ⁓

like the cognitive side of the placebo effect in many ways. But it’s really interesting because the brain is essentially a prediction machine. know, we’re always basically, the brain is constantly scanning its environment for patterns and to figure out what maybe I’m going to say at the end of this sentence. And so expectations come into that so much, even when students, when teachers expect,

⁓ great things from their students. When they have higher expectations of them, they perform better. So it’s a really interesting neurocognitive phenomenon that hasn’t really been explored before and he explores it beautifully in that book.

James Taylor (48:40)

almost sounds like the science of people talk about manifestation or you know going into the mirror every day and saying imagining like these are the five things I’m gonna achieve in my life so great so we’ll put a link to that book as well. ⁓ If people want to learn more about you and you’re writing your books, you have multiple books now, where’s the best place to go and do that?

Joseph Jebelli (49:00)

The best place is to go to my website actually, just drjosephjubely.com. ⁓ You can see my books, you can see any upcoming like speaking events. You can also contact me directly there as well. I try my best to reply to everyone who contacts me. That’s the best place. I’m not on social media. I might eventually go on social media. I’m very, very hesitant. But for the time being, the website is the best place.

James Taylor (49:30)

Well,

Joseph Gibelli, thank you for being a guest on the Super Creativity Podcast.

Joseph Jebelli (49:35)

Thank you, James.